Below is a reply to the comments on my last post..I did not have enough motivation to waste time on that stupid comment box that requires html scripting for formatting...and you can not even put pure html there...
I am continuing this word war because i am somewhat tired of me shutting up after just one or two sentences from people who dont beleive me and start arguing ...so this one time i have decided to continue it..Much of the text that follows might not be interest of you..You can simply read the last four paras..as before that ..its a conversation that goes on between me and Raza ....and i guess only he will be able to have the motivation to understand and read all the thing... To get his comments on what i say, do check the comments section later..
Legend:Blue text is my earlier writing..that i wrote in a comment as response to a comment . Green text is Raza's reply to that blue writing..
Normal is my present writing which is a response to Raza's green text..
CONVERSTAION WITH RAZA
Ok..lets go through it again:
First off, there is a distinction between research and scientific method. Research is a part of science, and thereby you cannot do research applicable to science unless you meet other criteria of scientific method. That research is associated with scientific method is in the definition of Research from the wiki link you cite.
I still have no interest in the scientific method..why because it is NOT something that you talked about earlier.. you used the word research ..but then you looked on the definition on it and didn’t find any thing objecting Emoto.. then you looked at this link of scientific method (given on the wiki of ‘Research’ ) and then you are using the word ‘scientific method’ to help you to the rescue.. I am sure that you know it more than I do that staying on one word is important in a discussion cause going into the meaning of each and every word makes things out of focus…that why I am still hooking to the word research.. so in the next reply which you will definitely provide. .i don’t want to talk about scientific method cause I don’t think that its helping me.. but if you really think it IS that important ..i am talking about it in the para below when you yourself provided a copy paste from it..
I gave you the criteria for scientific method, which includes peer review. It was paraphrased, here it is again in case you missed it:
Another basic expectation is that of making complete documentation of data and methodology available for careful scrutiny by other scientists and researchers, thereby allowing other researchers opportunity to verify results as well as to establish statistical measures of reliability.
The writing itself says that this requirement is mainly an expectation..and not a requirement.. Btw do you know that there is criticism on the "peer review thing'.. mainly because it is slow (taking many years sometimes) and because it makes the ability to publish susceptible to control by elites and to personal jealousy.
And IN YOUR FACE ...let me tell you that there have been many papers that appeared in scientific journals without any peer review...FAMOUS EXAMPLES:
1. Publication of Watson and Crick's 1951 paper on the structure of DNA in Nature.
2. Abdus Salam's paper "Weak and electromagnetic interactions". Salam even got the Nobel prize for it in 1979. and ou
You ask me why I give such importance to Wiki, for one you quoted it when you posted on Silva so I assumed its a resource you trust, for another although everyone can edit Wikis, Wiki is "open source". Anyone can raise objections and contest material, thereby if there are differing opinions on a matter they are often contested. If you find anything misleading here, you can do the same.
Raza!! We were not talking about MY CRITERIA to understand thing…It should be YOUR CRITERIA all the time… You already have so many objections on my sources and the things that I think are trustworthy….. and btw MOST of the spiritual stuff that I have learnt is from wikipedia.. does it mean that you believe in that all too?? Aint this strange that I guy who believes in research still follows a site which can be objected by anyone and which can be edited by anyone who may or may not be applying the so called scientific methods in editing the wiki. It is even objected by the wiki writers... read...
So how many people do you know who edit wikis using ‘Scientific method’ and how many people in the world are all dedicated to the holy cause of keeping wikipedia correct . You have assumed that all the people in the world have an all time internet connection along with ample of time & motivation to check the wikis of their interest. On the Internet, it's impossible to actually confirm people's identity in the first place, short of getting credit-card information. On any site it's very easy to come up with a fake identity..
WRONG!! Lets see how..there are two objections
not repeatable
double blind
REPEATABLE:
Emoto's experiements are repeateable...Not only that the whole process has been described on the same wiki from where you learnt all the things against him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto) but also on NBC's website where they even tell you to experiment it yourself.. They the NBC guys call him a researcher btw...
(http://www.nbc10.com/news/5455548/detail.html)
http://www.nbc10.com/news/5476558/detail.html)
When I say repeatable it is in context of technically complete specifications, which is not the case.
A group of students in colorado (i think) tried to repeat his experiements (the very last link on the wikipedia site on Emoto) and they came up with the conclusion that it was impossible to do it, because the specification is just too vague. (They also found that virtually all of the crystals across different emotions looked the same in general)
NO RAZA.. you are wrong again…. they were able to do it … READ IT AGAIN..its here…It was done by Advanced Placement Psychology class at Durango High School in Durango, Colorado ..They did the whole experiment using ALL the technical parameters defined by Emoto .These technical specifications are written on the Emoto’s wiki and the class itself has defined it in their procedures as well.. … The students were ABLE to do the experiment .. and there results were in conformance .. Read below as I answer
Emoto approaches the issue of objectivity from a radically different perspective: Since each person's state of mind will affect the water, and since much of the experiment is based on the "consciousness of wanting to find that beauty," then a person with a neutral or disinterested perspective might not find the crystals at all, he said.
so are you getting it..the water gets effected differently by the thoughts of different people..so you can not go for the blind test.. Blind test can be used only at the places where the state of changing a person mind wont effect the result..Here , the results WILL be effected..and thats the basic essence of the whole research...the way you presented this thing was as if Emoto was denying any offer of the peer review and was hiding his findings...he, instead, has described his method so clearly that even you yourself can do them to check their authenticity..What else do you want..
First off he hasnt presented his methods in a way that I can do it, or even you can. I've cited you a link where a group of students tried to replicate his results and couldnt simply because there wasnt enough information, and what he did give did NOT give any fancy results.
AGAIN.. YOU ARE WRONG .. The students were able to do it.. citing something and presenting it in a wrong manner wont make your argument true…READ THE WHOLE THING AGAIN.. READ IT here..…Since you have WRONGLY repeated the thing so many time..now I will give the true picture by writing the conculsion that they (the colarado people) had ..It follows
Conclusion: We did not find sufficient evidence to refute or accept Emoto’s hypothesis that thought influences water crystal formation. We noticed one interesting similarity between two separate groups of water samples: Similar crystals formed on the same message, “I despise you,” in two types of water. But, for the most part, the crystal formations in each water sample resembled each other, regardless of the messages attached to them. We concluded that in order to make a significant finding, further research would have to be done. So, for now, we will have to live with our curiosity and continue to wonder if our thoughts have the power to influence water and ultimately ourselves.
So you see it.. They were able to find the same type of crystals on the same type of message “I despise you”….and although they did not have very very supportive result..they still accept that they do NOT have sufficient evidence to refute or accept the guy…They have concluded that FURTHER RESEARCH should be done.. FURTHER RESEARCH right??? So the experiment did provide them enough curiosity cause they did find something there..
AND RAZA…here I wonder again.. A researcher who proves his point by giving theories from wikipeida and examples from some Psychology class at a High School . Are they really so credible for you.. Is that YOUR criteria ??? this clearly means that YOU CAN NOT target my criterias when your own criterias are not worth trusting.. Wikipedia and other internet search results should not be a criteria for a proper researcher at least.. and if it so then whats the difference between a normal person and a researcher..
His saying that you only find the crystals when you WANT to consciously find them, doesnt that send off warning signals? The blind tests do NOT impact the conditioning of the water (that would cause the crystals to form). They are there to discourage people from finding the crystals they'd like to find.
HE never says that you only find the crystals when you want to find them. He says that he hired photographers based on their…..(cited by wiki)
aesthetic sense and character is the important aspect when taking crystal photographs. Therefore, I try to make sure that they can take photographs in a relaxed and positive atmosphere.
…. (citation ends)
SO this is how and why he selects people.. and off course that’s what he should do…why? Because not every person has a properly developed aesthetic sense. Not every person is able to find beauty. You can go on and read this thing in Psychology if you don’t trust me.. and secondly he wants to provide a proper environment in which people wont be fighting on the definition of beauty…
What Emoto is essentially saying is that you consciously look for crystals that support your hypothesis. Either that, or I misunderstand you.
Well..from the thing that I read I don’t think that’s what he is saying..Try to read it with an unbiased mind…
At any rate, theres nothing stopping people from using all their mind power when they're creating the crystals. However if they start using their mind power when photographing the crystals, then you basically are never going to be wrong :).
Well.. the way I understand it…is that the thought projection thing (that you have named mind power above) is done before taking the photograph… i.e the step 2 on the wikipedia …photography is the step 6 in the procedure defined on wikipedia..
Since he says its language independent, he could follow blinding by cursing in one language and hiring the photographer of a different origin who is unaware of what to look for.
Yes ..He has exposed water to different languages and has come up with the same results… Hiring a photographer of a different origin is not important at all…cause that is the step 6… but offcourse this is yet again a very trivial thing which you can use to build another argument only because there is no information on whether he actually tried hiring a photographer or not.. though you yourself know that people on other places (colarado) have done these things… yet again you will come up with something about which there is no information wether it was done or not..just to create confusion…
But then no...you have to consciously look to find structure right.. So you have license to fabricate any relationship you want.
I didn’t get this sentence.. Paraphrasing may help… The thing that I understand is that your probably mean that you can get what you want from it..the same way ..you and I google on the net and always find opposite point of views on the same things…some time from the same source…some time from same experiment results…especially the Colorado one…which you yourself asked me to READ AGAIN…thinking that I had not read it..and then I have given the whole conclusion here telling that the experiment was infact concluding in the favour of more research.. Citing it went against your points..
And it is true that Emoto has not published in peer review, nor are his methods repeatable (I once again urge you to read the report of the psychology class that tried to redo his experiments).
YES RAZA.. I have read the report of the psychology class..and I don’t urge you to read that..i simply ask you to scroll up and see their conclusion from up there..that I have simply copied and pasted from their website… I am really amazed a psychology class in colarado is all that you are referring again and again.. Hmmm.. a very nice example by a person who claims to look into SCIENTIFIC Methods when proving something…It shows your level.. and you blame that I am the one who believes in things quickly.
By the way, the *Photo Essay* he has out is in the American Journal of Alternative Medicine. So it is clearly not a case of him not having access to scientific journals or anything like that. He merely, for some reason, does not put his research out in a scientific way.
I don’t know wether its him or not…I have never read an article or anything from him explicitly saying that he is not deliberately writing things to scientific journal..May be he tried and was turned down by the political bodies in the scientific community …may be no body ever approached him…(like that 1 million dollar challenge ,in which the foundation never actually directly asked him).. there can be many things..…However, what you should come up with must be an article in scientific journals completely against Emoto…Can you find that..oh you can always use Google and Wikipedia..
What else?? Oh!! read comments on him at http://66.201.42.16/viewitem.php3?id=511&catid=510&kbid=ionsikc where a woman who is M.D., Ph.D. , Founding President, of American Holistic Medical Association talks about Emoto..
I didnt give my links any credibility just because they were written by Phds. Nor because any TV station called someone a researcher, because I am a "researcher" and that doesnt really mean anything.
Oh..you never gave any credibility at all..though you should have if you are a researcher.It was only me attempting to give some credibility by citing a PHD…all that you ever cited was the wiki searc results…oh how very credible…All wikis are written by PHDs right (sarcastic…cause they are not written by PHDs..They are written by people whose identities can not be verified..)
Masuro emoto ofcourse could be called a researcher. He is after all a Phd, even if thats from the Open University of Alternative Medicine in India or whatever.
Earlier you said in an earlier comment ..the 2nd one in the comments on the post…that he has not done any research.. Read the last line of your comment ..….Now you are saying that he can be called a researcher….Does it prove something..?? You yourself are saying conflicting things…
So Dear Raza ..now i have used your own criteria to prove the guy true
You havent *proven* anything. Nor have I *proven* anything. Lets not claim results we havent got. Neither of us is Masuru Emoto :D
Oh yeah…and I didn’t prove that you said conflicting things up there....and here again you are blaming Emoto of saying things without a research.. False claims Raza!!.. you are not coming up with anthing solid ..you are just repeating the sentence to make the false look true..
Talking about existance of no research...and then denying an example ...and then keep reading it about from other websites to prove it wrong....when the problem is not the research ...but in my ability to believe those things quickly which you do not...you have been targeting the wrong thing Raza from the very start.
Well this has been an encouraging exercise for me because I've gotten you to read about him, even if that has been from the section of Wikipedia that was sympathetic to him :D.
Wikipedia was sympathetic to him.. really??…Oh you can always raise objections on this article then as wikis are supposed to be neutral…and you claimed earlier in your comments that anybody can do that…Lets see who has too much spare time to go and correct all the wrong things on the wikipedia…Lets see who edits Dr. Emotos wiki now to make it appear neutral..After all , as you claim ,its an open source thing which according to your logic makes it credible and true.
The last time we talked, you gave me an example of the "science" of your stuff, do you remember? That they have captured the katra or whatever with some magnetic resonance stuff. And I dismissed that and said tahts not science. And we had a whole discussion on what science is then, and I told you that the body of knowledge that is accepted in universities and scientists is science (becuase science is a function of what we know).
Do you remember that debate? We ended on whether science is the same as knowledge.
Yeah…I remember..we were standing beside my princess. I was of the view that knowledge is science..and you were confused wether it is not..and that’s where we ended when I got bored by your confused answers of wether knowledge is science or not. At that time you claimed that there is NO RESEARCH anywhere in the world on the paranormal stuff..
So clearly, my saying that there is no research on this was in context of scientific research. I have shown you how this isnt research, the guy hasnt put out a scientific publication and that he doesnt shield his results from bias (the requirement again is that you dont need to be unbiased when cursing/being nice to the water crystals, but be unbiased when filming it).
WRONG…you have to be biased before taking the picture…REPEATING again…just because you want it to appear it true.. oh..you say (you repeat) that it is not a research as the guy has not come up with any scientific publication…but how is it that you call yourself a researcher when you too have not got any scientific publication against the Water crystals… Let me repeat to make the true thing appear true…that Emoto doesn’t say that you need to be biased when filming the crystal.. you do it before that….
If you think the Randi stuff is non-credible then I'll drop that argument. Anything that either one of us doesnt trust becomes a red herring.
Oh.. Wow…you are trying to show that all the other things that you cited were extremely credible….
so let me be clear..i have been into paranormal stuff and though i have not been able to come up with earthshaking results , i have had enough experinces/reading that make me understand a few phenomenons... uff!!
The way it will work out Sameer (and you can put this upto my being in tune with the cosmic energy of your future) is that you will realise that these things do not bring any appreciable value to your life, eventually, and will discover how people can take advantage of your genuine longing for spirituality in order to fulfill their own very material need for money. However, you will do that only when you've paid a very hefty physical and career price for it.
thanks for PREDICTING the future…All knowledge comes on a price…It may be money…it may be long hours of reading things on internet… People do waste their money and time on things they wanna know and learn.. I spent a lot more (money +time) in GIKI on my electronic engineering studies…Do you have objection on that…cause I am in an IT firm now.. I never found the line of people dying to hire me in their company at the time of my graduation…neither I ever found a good electronics related company …but still I believe that the education I got there was important for me… I still keep on going on Electronic/Telecom related seminars cause i know that eductation never goes wasted.. Btw ..in this para..don’t you think you sound like the molvees in the mosques who tell people that they will be burnt in hell flames if they wont listen to what they say.. and just to clarify: i have spent a lot on this knowledge and i have no remorse..
From various parts of our conversations I've come to see that you want to lose weight but you dont because a lot of your time is spent in this stuff. You want to be progressing career wise but dont because you spend your time and money on this.
From previous parts of our conversations , you consider that fatness is the most important thing in my life …I assure you it is not…There is something else (it is out of scope of this discussion..but what the hell..you are already going out of discussion by leaving Emoto and all of a sudden pointing on me.) .. so I tell you that the reason I have fatness is that I never gave it the top priority..There are other things in my life which I do consider more important..and if you trust my conversation with other people, then let me tell you that I once told my Guru (prof Moiz) that I am not losing weight cause I realize that I do not consider it very important…He answered me that I should apply some techniques to make it appear as the most important thing.. though , he added, that if you are happy with it , live with it…I also know a guy who has achieved a very high spiritual status but is double the size of me… slimness is not at all as important for him…I agree that there are health risks involved with fatness…I am not saying that one should remain fat…its just that it at the moment does not appear as my top priority.. A fat guy who is happy with his life is a million times better than a slim , smart ,handsome and **** guy who is not happy..
…The reason you think that fatness is important for me is that it is one thing that I make fun of a lot..(you know..my own self is the biggest source of fun for me)…
About my career progress: … Do you fail to see that I recently left a job where I was earning more to a job where I am earning less.. only because its offers a better career...but whatever..career too is not THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in my life...I want to live a happy life..and you have not heard of what I say about my previous job where I was getting more by doing less… and you have not ever heard of what I say about my satisfaction level now that I switched job..perhaps reading my earlier posts (which I started during the job switching time) may help you…
There is a time when one needs to look around and evaluate what is holding him back in life, and drop it like it never existed. Tell me this, do either me or Bodi still prefer games over advancement in life?
I don’t know about what you guys prefer…let me just make claims on me ..I do give preference to advancement in life… …. Offcourse you saying this because you have different parameters to define “Advancement in life”…Your idea of having advancement in life might be getting lot of money , enjoying a very good designation etc. etc.. For me the idea is to BE HAPPY with whatever you have.... i want to remain happy even without having much.. (Reminds me of a one liner by bodi….I am happy and I must remain happy)...Its not that i am deliberately trying to be prefer spiritual thing on life..its just that i am prioriting things that are important to make me happy... I dont believe that a good career can keep me happy all my life..
And btw I believe that I was hired in my current company because for the first time in my life I had done NO TECHNICAL STUDY and only SPIRITUAL PREPARATION for the interview..and I was selected even though I have a EE background and they hire CS guys.. Offcourse, you can consider this as a mere coincidence.. I can go into further detals if you are interested…but this is one thing that i strongly call my success...
What kind of spirituality inhibits a person's personal life? What is the difference between your tablighi jamaats gasht and making you lose ICI mails and these tapes and meditations and 15000 rupee conferences?
What kind of spirituality is so corporate, so manufactured, so marketed, so prepackaged into nice little consumer boxes?
These are just derogatory remarks.so I am ignoring them.. But I know about research organization that ask for MONEY …They ask for money to get registered WHY????.. ..Knowledge has become commercial..Its not the problem of spiritual knowledge only..Its the knowledge of everything…Be it spiritual ...be it technical papers...
You are supposed to be a free man, free from anything that enslaves you. IF you have control over this, IF you can give this up and focus on other things in your life that absolutely need your focus, and IF this is not hampering your career and health, I would have no objection to it, nor would I write so much.
Yeah.. a guy who is so materialist that he considers CAREER and MONEY the most important things in life is asking me to be a free man… Let me be clear the real important problem of my life (description is out of scope .it has been shared with only few people) can not be solved by a good career and money.. and..errr…Just to give you an example…how can you ever make a person’s idea about God’s existence by giving him lots of money and good career..Can you?? (Clarification: God’s existence is not my real big problem)
As far as my health is concerned , my office job is whats making me fat..
But I dont see it that way. I see you held hostage to this. And I dont think one has an indefinite time in life.
And how do I consider it as any help..when you don’t tell me a way out ….. just telling me that you don’t like something wont be of much help to me…I understand that there is no indefinite time in life…so what is your idea about it..should I devote myself completely to money and career advancement….or should I enjoy my life by learning thing I want to learn…and by remaining happy with whatever I already have.. ..
If you want to talk more about me..we can...and we should as it helps me more than it helps you..but I just want to stay on the current thing..the Dr. Emoto thing…the last few things can be discussed…We can talk about it but for now I prefer to stay closer to the main topic of discussion…
CONVERSTAION WITH RAZA ENDS
THE LAST FOUR PARAs..
Our discussion started on your objection : I cite it
I disagree with you on key aspects though, foremost that you are too easy a believer, and thereby you undermine your own quest by taking whichever spiritual door shown to you without really questioning anything.
You blame that its me who believes things too easily.. In this course of discussion I have seen you believing in thing that you already wanted to believe…I have always been a skeptic to all my spiritual things myself.. and I look at it in a neutral manner…and I like to discuss it in a neutral manner. ..you seem to have a belief that these things are false.. you are not seeing these things neutrally.. All the objection that you had on Emoto’s experiment was that he had not done any peer reviews…something which by its definition is just expected and not required..that Abdul Salam thing turned out to the rescue ... My god, people are getting noble prizes without peer reviews...something that you hold so dear..
And this course of discussion also shows the your approach and mine approach to trust is similar.. Its just that you don’t believe at all…I , on the other hand, might be a believer but I am still looking at these things in a neutral manner…I keep looking at things..to verify them…cause I think you have to do things in order to verify wether they are wrong or not.. Just reading on some big words against something is not enough (this comes from a notice on your statement..that silva is nothing but “cold reading”.. I have done silva..it has nothing to do with the cold reading. .the teacher there never ever told us anything about us ..let alone any cold reading..you should have atleast read about Silva or atleast cold reading)..
I usually try to have my own experiences and my own opinions…I don’t want to waste my life on copying and pasting…so I go out to have my own interaction with of all the things that I want to learn.. and I guess that’s what a research is.. If at any time later, I decide that all these things are wrong (though at present I don’t feel like it as I am currently successes after a lapse of so many years) I will still have the satisfaction that it was ME who proved it to me....not a copy and paste of somebody’s else writing…and I guess that’s what makes me a researcher..
